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Paracompact 3 hours ago [-]
I've been pondering for a while a question that is exceedingly unlikely to ever be answered within my lifetime, because as a prerequisite it assumes a framework strong enough to answer several very hard questions in philosophy, neuroscience, and information theory. And that question is: Is it possible even in principle for a conscious entity to have an instinctual understanding and awareness of every low-level detail comprising its design?
> An extensive network of veins called a venous plexus are located on both sides of each of the lateral cartilages and in the sensitive structures of the hoof. The compression of these veins by the plantar cushion against the lateral cartilages or the coffin bone against the hoof acts as a “pump” to force the blood up the leg and back to the heart.
A horse is an extremely sophisticated biological machine, but it has no idea what makes itself tick. It has some limited mental model of the world around it and that's about it. Humans fare little better, but at least can make inch-by-inch progress through scientific study.
Such a creature that knew and felt itself perfectly, could at any point inquire the status of its own glycogen stores in its liver, could diagnose and micromanage its immune responses, could introspect accurately and with infinite recursion upon its own thoughts, seems hard to imagine, because if one were to set out to design such a creature, naturally its complexity would have to scale with the complexity it is attempting to self-model. Perhaps there is some sort of upper limit to the consciousness:complexity ratio that makes closing this gap impossible. (Or perhaps there isn't, and that would be just as fascinating.)
If nothing else, I would like to read a Borges story on the subject. Such a creature might inevitably be doomed to the same fate as Funes the Memorious.
colbyn 14 minutes ago [-]
I’ve thought about this. Or at least something like that.
When reading dune there’s a class of women who can control their biochemistry in such a way that they can eg prolong lifespan, or anything else within the realm of feasible biochemistry.
Here I was like: how does the nervous system function in that way? How could signals from the mind control the behavior of molecules?
The mind cannot itself feel pain, similarly the mind has sensory limits within the body. As argued in a book called the body a guide for occupants: cancer is a very good example of a disease that our nervous system should be able to detect but for whatever reason we don’t, probably because cancer is something we can only now treat.
Not all of the body can be made legible to the mind.
Although maybe a better question: why don’t we have a dedicated organ that can sample blood with laboratory like precision and make anomalies available to the conscious mind beyond whatever faculties we currently have?
Animats 3 hours ago [-]
> Is it possible even in principle for a conscious entity to have an instinctual understanding and awareness of every low-level detail comprising its design?
Access is possible, complexity limits what you can do with it.
It's like having a JTAG port on a chip with a lot of test access. You can read the state of most of the gates, but now you're overwhelmed with data. Processing that data takes more resources than the system being monitored.
At a larger scale, though, this starts to work. Modern industrial plants and cars have sensors all over the place, more than are really needed to operate the system. They're there to diagnose it.
QuercusMax 3 hours ago [-]
Kinda like we have sensors all over the place, but the info a lot of them deliver (pain) is pretty vague. And because of how it gets aggregated and delivered to the brain, sometimes you have funny glitches like how I can scratch the inside of my left ear and it makes me cough.
Evolution really looked at this big long list of gastrointestinal diseases we as humans can suffer from, and thought that traumatizing amounts of random nausea, constipation, diarrhea, and tummy hurt would be enough for us to figure out when we're supposed to be eating more nuts and less berries, or whatever the hell. I hate it.
Shitty-kitty 3 hours ago [-]
Many of the systems that complex biological systems rely on, evolved long before the brain, some of them go back to before there were nervous systems at all.
Truth is that it's all a hodge-podge of layers of complexity built on-top and sideways. In tech terms we would call it enormous technical debt.
literalAardvark 2 hours ago [-]
We're all vibe coded :(
Piezoid 2 hours ago [-]
The test suite did the heavy lifting.
UltraSane 1 hours ago [-]
Humans are kept alive by quadrillions of closed control loops. Being aware of them all would be very distracting.
29 minutes ago [-]
cromulent 4 hours ago [-]
The calf muscle pump performs the same task in humans.
signalbright 4 hours ago [-]
Posts like this one are the reason we read Hacker News
> An extensive network of veins called a venous plexus are located on both sides of each of the lateral cartilages and in the sensitive structures of the hoof. The compression of these veins by the plantar cushion against the lateral cartilages or the coffin bone against the hoof acts as a “pump” to force the blood up the leg and back to the heart.
A horse is an extremely sophisticated biological machine, but it has no idea what makes itself tick. It has some limited mental model of the world around it and that's about it. Humans fare little better, but at least can make inch-by-inch progress through scientific study.
Such a creature that knew and felt itself perfectly, could at any point inquire the status of its own glycogen stores in its liver, could diagnose and micromanage its immune responses, could introspect accurately and with infinite recursion upon its own thoughts, seems hard to imagine, because if one were to set out to design such a creature, naturally its complexity would have to scale with the complexity it is attempting to self-model. Perhaps there is some sort of upper limit to the consciousness:complexity ratio that makes closing this gap impossible. (Or perhaps there isn't, and that would be just as fascinating.)
If nothing else, I would like to read a Borges story on the subject. Such a creature might inevitably be doomed to the same fate as Funes the Memorious.
When reading dune there’s a class of women who can control their biochemistry in such a way that they can eg prolong lifespan, or anything else within the realm of feasible biochemistry.
Here I was like: how does the nervous system function in that way? How could signals from the mind control the behavior of molecules?
The mind cannot itself feel pain, similarly the mind has sensory limits within the body. As argued in a book called the body a guide for occupants: cancer is a very good example of a disease that our nervous system should be able to detect but for whatever reason we don’t, probably because cancer is something we can only now treat.
Not all of the body can be made legible to the mind.
Although maybe a better question: why don’t we have a dedicated organ that can sample blood with laboratory like precision and make anomalies available to the conscious mind beyond whatever faculties we currently have?
Access is possible, complexity limits what you can do with it.
It's like having a JTAG port on a chip with a lot of test access. You can read the state of most of the gates, but now you're overwhelmed with data. Processing that data takes more resources than the system being monitored.
At a larger scale, though, this starts to work. Modern industrial plants and cars have sensors all over the place, more than are really needed to operate the system. They're there to diagnose it.
Evolution really looked at this big long list of gastrointestinal diseases we as humans can suffer from, and thought that traumatizing amounts of random nausea, constipation, diarrhea, and tummy hurt would be enough for us to figure out when we're supposed to be eating more nuts and less berries, or whatever the hell. I hate it.